Conversation of Kabbalist Michael Laitman, PhD with a psychiatrist, actor Alexander Rapoport
Alexader Rapoport: By listening to the CDs with your speeches, I am ready to subscribe to every word. To me, everything that you say seems to be correct, everything that you say is good, everything that you say is very clear. The only thing that is not clear to me is how this differs from what the representatives of other teachings: yoga, Islam, Orthodoxy, qigong, Tai-Chi and etcetera claim. How is this teaching unique?
M. Laitman: Your question: “How Kabbalah differs from other teachings, religions” I can answer by saying that on the surface, it does not differ at all. It stands in the same row as all-all other teachings: esoteric, non esoteric, religious, different spiritual practices. And man outwardly can not distinguish one from the other. One can say that it is older than the rest, one can say that it has a more serious inner apparatus: sketches and graphs, an enormous amount of literature, a connection to different manifestations in our life, but all this does not yet speak about the verity and uniqueness of the teaching.
The uniqueness of Kabbalah is absolutely not visible outwardly. The one that looks at spiritual teachings, practices, religions from the outside can say that all of them are the same. And really, all of them are similar to each other in some way. All of them speak about the necessity of doing kind deeds, that one must not use his egoism, that one needs to come closer to nature, and etcetera. All of them have a clear common basis.
The uniqueness of Kabbalah is discovered only when man enters it. And then he understands in what way it is really unique. How can one speak about Kabbalah allowing man to enter the Upper World, the Spiritual World, eternity, perfection; to break away from this world while continuing to exist in it; to feel oneself simultaneously being inside a body and outside the body? We do not even have appropriate words to express these states. But followers of all other religions and teachings can say the same thing.
Man that experiences the spiritual assent inside of him sees for himself the way Kabbalah differs from all other methods. I can only say one thing: Kabbalah is the only thing that we will have left after all other methods die out. But for the time being Kabbalah neither imposes itself nor offers itself, since it is impossible to explain what it gives.
That is, I can not tell you how Kabbalah differs from all other teachings, religions, spiritual methods, because only he who begins to master it and enter it, meaning, he who reaps the fruits of his knowledge, experiences it on himself. But until then it is impossible to understand anything. Because all religions, all methods, all spiritual practices say the same thing, also, in general, all of them look the same on the surface.
A. Rapoport: Is there a criterion, according to which I can choose precisely Kabbalah, and not, say, yoga or qigong?
M. Laitman: The fact is that man develops. A long path of development has gone by from the ancient human being to our days, and this development evokes the need for one or another spiritual practice in us. And there were times when people strove towards some specific spiritual practices—more primitive, and at a later time more progressive, advanced.
Now we are experiencing the last splash of interest for all the spiritual practices and even religions, even though we do not yet see that it is the last one. After everything will finally end in the nearest future, only Kabbalah will be left.
A. Rapoport: Will you and I live to see this?
M. Laitman: I think that this will happen in the next several years. Because, during our time, egoism is growing in such an intense manner, it will not be able to be satisfied by any other spiritual practices. The question about the meaning of life will be set inside in such a sharp manner, so strongly, so firmly, that no other persuasions or promises of reward in the future world, no argumentations or meditations will satisfy man. He will need an obvious attainment of the Upper World at this very moment, in this lifetime, in our world and a simultaneous existence in both worlds.
A. Rapoport: Do you suppose that these expectations of yours, and prophecies—if you’d like—will not come true, and something else will happen? Well, for example, representatives of different teachings will meet (well, what if all of a sudden something like this will come to somebody’s mind) and will agree to make one teaching universal. From your point of view, is this theoretically possible?
M. Laitman: This can not happen because all other teachings are inventions of the human mind. Man invented them, derived from a need to fulfill himself that existed in him, to give himself hope, to justify his existence, to educate the future generation within certain boundaries, so that people would not scatter in different directions. That is, there was a need to “frighten”—on one hand, and to give an “opium for the people”—on the other.
This is not where Kabbalah comes from. This is a science about the structure of the universe. It speaks of the way the entire universe is created: that part of it that we feel in our five sensory organs, and that part that is hidden from us and we need to make it manifest itself. An evident revelation of this secret part of the universe gives man an opportunity to see everything, to feel everything, and to realistically exist in full scope of existence.
This is an absolutely precise science that explains to man the way he can develop his sixth sense organ so he could perceive what now is hidden from him. This science is opposite to religions that are invented by men with the purpose of supporting themselves, so to speak, psychologically. And for this reason Kabbalah can not stand next to different esoteric and spiritual teachings. It does not have any connection to them.
A. Rapoport: Would you agree that to a great extent the function of religion is based on its followers not having any particular information on account of lack of education, by virtue of their own special mentality, perhaps, and they take a lot on faith. This is the case after all, right?
M. Laitman: Absolutely everything is taken on faith. Not a great deal of things, but absolutely everything. Simply put, religion is man’s conception about what supposedly exists that is taken on faith. That is, if I want to be religious I must accept all that I'm being told. Even though the one that told me has absolutely no idea what he was talking about, since someone had also told something to him.
A. Rapoport: Or, the person that says this does so out of his personal interest.
M. Laitman: Well, certainly.
A. Rapoport: You are telling me that there are five sensory organs, I was told of this. You are saying that there is a sixth sensory organ. To tell you the truth, I previously thought that this is the sense of humor; I found out from you that this is the screen. All right, I agree. But how will I feel the transition from the absence of the screen to the presence of it?
M. Laitman: Indeed, until man gains full force of a special inner tension, he does not acquire the screen, and even a second before he acquires it, one moment before this, he does not yet know what this is. And only when he acquires the screen, a picture of the concealed part of the world immediately opens up before him. And it coincides with the picture of the world that the person already has. He begins to see behind all that he perceived before, the hidden forces and properties, and he understands the way it all joins together into one common picture.
That is, the vision of inner governing forces completes that picture, which is perceived by our five senses. And this is what is called the revelation of the Upper World.
A. Rapoport: You have just said: “He sees…”
M. Laitman: He sees, not with the eyes, of course; he sees with his inner vision. This is a common sensation—supplementing the picture of our world with forces, vectors that govern matter. But the most important thing is not our matter, and not the way it functions, but penetration into the part behind matter.
When man begins to merge with this—with this program, with this plan, he begins to feel as if he leaves his body in this world—in the five sensory organs, in this matter, and his inner part, which he now perceives, and those forces that are behind matter, as if merge together. He is in contact with the universe on a different plane, on that of his inner forces, with the inner forces that are behind matter.
A. Rapoport: Doctor, I want to be as ethical as possible, because it is a great pleasure speaking with you and you bring out pleasant sensations in me. You have good energy, as it is fashionable to say today. You are charismatic and naturally I want to be as tactful as possible.
But I am still risking a chance of not being tactful and I ask: are you saying this because you yourself have experienced what you are now speaking of, or you are just saying it because today you are at the head of this teaching and are defending some specific viewpoints?
I know the answer beforehand: naturally, you are saying this because you believe in it, because you have felt it.
M. Laitman: No, I do not believe in it—I have felt it. There is no faith involved here. Faith is purely a psychological category that does not relate to Kabbalah in any way. The only thing that is taken into account in Kabbalah is what we clearly feel.
A. Rapoport: Imagine: a person is blind, and a sighted person conveys the sensation of the blue of the sky or the red of an apple to him. Can you, like a sighted person to a blind person, now convey the sensation that I do not have to me; can you describe it?
M. Laitman: I cannot, just like the sighted person cannot explain anything to the blind person. If this blind person does not have any information, no recollection, no idea, that is, he does not have the sensation of light or color imprinted somewhere inside, then no sighted person will be able to convey this to him in any way.
A. Rapoport: That means that until a person himself begins to feel it, he cannot speak the same language with others?
M. Laitman: That’s absolutely correct.
A. Rapoport: And then there is no connection between people with perception (let’s call them so) and people that have not yet perceived, and this connection cannot be?
M. Laitman: There can be no sensible connection on the spiritual level. There can be a different type of connection: a person that has passed a certain path acts as an instructor, a teacher for those, who desire to pass this path.
A. Rapoport: The way that, let’s say, a teacher of arithmetic explains to a preschool student that two times two is four, but the student does not know this yet, and for this reason he doubts and tries to prove to the teacher that this is not the way it is?
M. Laitman: No. There cannot be any proofs here. Here, the teacher is an instructor. I am emphasizing—an instructor and not a teacher. Because he simply tells a person: “You need to make such and such inner actions, so that a habit of movement in the direction of attainment of the screen would gradually develop in you,” and explains to him which ones precisely. Basically, this is the topic of all Kabbalistic books.
A. Rapoport: There is an English saying: “Fake it until you make it.” Can you recommend a person to envision that he already has it, in order to somehow accelerate this knowledge, the finding of it?
M. Laitman: Yes. This technique is used in Kabbalah, but this technique has an opposite effect. Because, the more I supposedly strive towards spiritual attributes, spiritual world, the more I find myself to be opposite to them.
A. Rapoport: That is, you are trying to say that one needs to allow everything to take its course, and one simply needs to want it a lot?
M. Laitman: No. If everything is “allowed to take its course,” then nothing will work out. The thing is that the acquiring of the upper property, Upper World, comes from Above. We need to receive a certain energy. We need to receive this property from Above, not from inside of ourselves. And the entire method is based on bringing a special emanation over us, called the Upper Light, and then the screen reveals itself in us.
That is, this does not happen in the same way as with all other types of work, when the result is the consequence of accumulation of skills, of experiences, or when I acquire a certain property, t it is as a result of my efforts. The acquiring of the screen is not a direct consequence of my efforts.
A. Rapoport: I want to tell you a little story. I had just begun studying psychotherapy, right after college. Naturally, I was a traditional psychotherapist and I knew what could and could not be from my point of view.
A person of high standing—the second secretary of the city council of the party—turned to me. I was practicing sexology. At that moment—the sixties—this was almost a forbidden science.
And so this person told me of his situation. At one point he was leaving his wife for his mistress, later he decided to come back, and the mistress told him that she had cast a spell on him and that from now on he would not be able to have any contact with anyone, except her. Naturally, he, being an educated person, did not believe it, but as he returned home he discovered that it was so.
He came to me, at that time, I, a young psychotherapist, was practicing sexology. Naturally, I told him that there isn’t any witchcraft and that the problem simply lies in his suggestibility and etcetera, and etcetera. I wasted one and a half months trying to convince him and he would come every day and would begin to grumble: “Do something, I know that you can, I will pay you well doctor, I will not tell anyone, oh, please…”
And then it once happened that I told my father about it —a former dramatic actor, who became a psychotherapist (we studied together). He told me, being a sarcastic and also a knowledgeable person, what could be and what could not be from his point of view: “You do everything incorrectly. The man wants you to un-charm him. You need to un-charm him.”
The following day, when that fellow came to me and by habit, already almost hopelessly, started to grumble I locked the door , closed the curtains, came up to him and said: “Now, look, if you even breathe a word of this to anyone…” Then I took a pill of phytin (this is a mix of phosphorus) out of my pocket, wrapped in a paper, tied with a ribbon, gave this pill to him, took money from him, which was a serious crime at the time, as you can understand, and told him: “You will take this pill a half an hour before the supposed contact, and then have no further contacts over the course of one week.” He left happy.
I will ask you a tactless question: Maybe, now you are also playing your game with such enthusiasm that you yourself believed in it?
M. Laitman: Usually, absolutely all religions and spiritual methods except for Kabbalah play this game.
A. Rapoport: Why: “except?” Why?
M. Laitman: Because all of them use different external attributes, mass actions, incantations, blessings, prayers, special holidays—everything is wrapped and wound around man, and envelopes him from all sides. This absolutely and clearly is the “opium for the people.” And everyone plays this game. But Kabbalah does not use similar examples. It tells man: “Here is a book for you, if you want, study, if you do not want, don’t.” If it weights upon you, you will not escape it, if it does not weight upon you—it is yet too early for you.
A. Rapoport: Then I will ask you an even more abstract question. Isn’t this what people who have attained the art of bluffing to perfection do, those, who want to lure a person into some episode and they tell him: “You know, actually, I have looked at you—perhaps you have not yet matured. If you need explaining then, perhaps, you do not need this yet?”
M. Laitman: Well, we already know that this is the simplest form of flirtation—luring. Because concealment attracts, rouses the appetite. This is clear.
But Kabbalah does not use this either. That is, it does not manifest itself in any way at all. It is now revealing itself only because the world is beginning to enter a very unpleasant state, a threatening state. And anyway, I am speaking about serious Kabbalah, and not the one that exists beside all this, as you know. That is, this is a serious teaching that is not imposed on anyone, that is not offered to anyone. If you want, take books, if you want, do something. There is no advertisement on television, on the Internet, on the radio, there are no “tricks,” it is something that is given—absolutely for free, but also in an absolutely unprejudiced manner, objectively, without any pressure. I repeat one more time: only those people come to Kabbalah, who already have nothing else left to them.
A. Rapoport: This is a good message. People that have nothing else left also come to me, but I practice psychotherapy, the relationships between men and women.
But now I understand very well our—excuse me for identifying myself with you—yours and mine, position. Since for some reason (considering that we are not proving anything to anyone and are not imposing anything on anyone) for some reason you and I are on television screen, we are appearing before the public on the radio, we publish books, on the covers of which it says: “Michael Laitman.” Do you understand? Possibly there still is something to it, as it is fashionable to say it today? Why do I want “Alexander Rapoport” to be written on it?
And it is also important to you that “Michael Laitman” is written. Also, it is important for you that as large of a number of good people as possible become followers of Kabbalah, and that as many bad people as possible become good and begin to study Kabbalah. After all it is important? Admit it!
M. Laitman: This applies to an absolutely different problem: incentives. Incentives are of two types. There are egoistic incentives: I, my family, my relatives, my folks, my acquaintances, the country, the people, the nation, my world, but in the end—I. And there are incentives that are dictated by the needs from Above; perhaps roused by dictation of the Upper Force when man ascends to the level, where it already is not the personal desires that determine his actions, but a certain requirement from Above.
This is absolutely not visible from the outside; this appears as the usual egoism. Of course, you can say that I advertise myself everywhere, I try to make people come to me, I strive for people to begin studying Kabbalah. It is possible to say that this is egoism is great. I accepted this teaching, to me it seamed like the only true one, a just and a correct one (you know, like that one teaching in the former Soviet Union) and this is why I impose it on the entire world.
We are speaking about incentives here, which regrettably are not visible from the outside.
A. Rapoport: I live in New York, and during holidays I very often see how someone, let’s say, leaves a basket with products at the doorstep of an unfamiliar person's house, as charity, and leaves. And as far as I understand, true charity is a situation where the person that received the gift, received the present, does not know who it is from.
M. Laitman: Yes. This is the highest level of egoism.
A. Rapoport: It seems that during that moment, the person that believes in God winks at Him and says: “This was I.”
M. Laitman: That’s absolutely correct.
A. Rapoport: But if we ask him about it, he will say that this is a message from Above, won’t he?
M. Laitman: I am telling you one more time: there is a screen—the separation from one’s own “I,” that is impossible to convey. All that you are speaking about, absolutely clearly looks like the most ordinary egoism, an even bigger egoism than that of regular people, where in reality, inner motivation is egoistic. The altruistic, the absolutely separated from the human “I,” is not visible from the outside. It is for this reason that Kabbalah is called a secret teaching—precisely for this reason.
A. Rapoport: Two incentives that representatives of psychology usually speak about are: the desire to experience pleasure and the desire to avoid pain. Is it the same egoistic incentive anyway?
M. Laitman: Yes.
A. Rapoport: Does any other incentive exist that a man, who has not yet attained Kabbalah, is not able to feel and for this reason, is naturally difficult for him to accept?
M. Laitman: Yes.
A. Rapoport: And what can I, Rapoport, do to feel it? Can you give any recommendations to the man that is now speaking with you?
M. Laitman: No. Anyway, I will not be able to convey what you are asking about to you, because it is ineffable. It becomes born in man himself. The sixth sense is born inside of the man himself only as a result of his specific efforts, and there is nothing that can be done about it. I can not tell you: “It resembles this and that.”
A. Rapoport: Did you know that I am also an actor? There are directors that say: “Look, this needs to be done like this.” Let’s say Michael Kazakov, who I shot with recently, works this way. He says: “Look, this needs to be like this.”
And there is a director that says: “Well, show me.” I show him. He says: “No, not like this.” I ask: “But how?” He responds: “I don’t know, show me more.” I show him. He says: “This isn’t it either, show me more.” And it goes on this way into eternity. You are the second director, aren’t you?
M. Laitman: No. I do not direct anything.
We are made in the image of the Upper Force and we have to come into equilibrium with it; only then will we feel comfortable. All interactions in nature are based on the condition of similarity, identity. And it is only in the state of similarity that we feel good.
Kabbalah tells us how to attain equivalence with the whole of nature, with the obvious and the concealed—it does not matter with which. And I am not kidding you and I am not telling you: “Try this or try that.” We have a precise method, which is described by people that have passed this entire path over generations. I am like an instructor; in addition to this method, I am near it together with you, I am trying to help you, to support you, so that you would carry out all these conditions. After what you will receive the sensation of the Upper World.
There are plenty of conditions that you need to carry out, and they gradually give birth to a feeling in you, through which you will feel the Upper World. It is not like: “I paid and felt it immediately” or “I want it now; give it to me now”—this is born gradually inside of us.
A. Rapoport: But nevertheless you just said that you are an instructor. Can you at least emphasize a direction, let’s say, so that a person, myself in this case, would shorten his path towards perception?
M. Laitman: The path begins with clarification, of whether you really have this desire. You are inside of all of your physical desires: within the desire for wealth, for fame, for power, and for knowledge, but you have already understood that you will not fulfill yourself with this. If you have fully realized this and you feel that there is nothing in this world that can fulfill you, then you are ready for the beginning of mastering of the spiritual.
A. Rapoport: All right. But to tell you the truth, I love mundane pleasures a lot. Wealth is no longer of value to me. But, let’s say that I still value physical pleasures. If I reject the physical, then why should I not just join a monastery?
M. Laitman: No, no, no. It is not a question of rejection of whatever it is. You do not have to reject anything. Rejection of desire does not mean that you have worked it out.
Over the course of your returns into this world—reincarnations—you perfect yourself in such a way, that an understanding ripens in you:, “I will not fulfill myself in this world, I need something else.” This is not religion, these are not meditations and neither are they spells of any kind, this is simply something else.
From time to time I can suddenly throw myself into physical pleasures, for example. Or, once again, something will pull me in some direction for some period of time, but an absolutely clear sensation that this world is empty is beginning to accumulate in me.
A. Rapoport: I watched your video program and you said that a person returns and returns and returns into this world until he realizes that there is nothing left for him to do here. Is this correct?
M. Laitman: But what does it mean: “that there is nothing to do?” After all I am an egoistic desire. All the fulfillments that can come to me from this world simply cease existing for me. I want something and I do not know what it is.
Then a question arises inside a person: “What is the meaning of life?” Such a childish question, but now it is being asked seriously: “What is the meaning of life?” A person, if it is with seriousness that he asks himself this, is already ready to begin studying Kabbalah, because it will give him a different fulfillment than anything else.
How does he sense that he needs Kabbalah and not something else? He simply feels it with his inner feeling, he simply comes to it, like an electric charge in an electric field, and he simply comes to that place where there is a book, where there is a teacher, where someone is saying something. This is based on the principle of equivalence, of the coupling of two parts in an ordinary space. They—the equivalent—are attracted to each other. Man begins to search with this new need, desire of his, and he begins to find that place where a method that suits him is.
Maybe he will now turn to Buddhism—it does not matter, in the upshot he will reincarnate again and nevertheless come to Kabbalah. Now, during our time, many have already come to this point. This is why we disseminate, do something that was still forbidden even fifty years ago.
Man circles around the point where the new need starts emerging in him, and until he establishes himself in this point, he can plunge again into the desire for wealth, let us suppose, and again return to it, and again—towards the secondary desires—towards knowledge, for example, and again return to it.
In other words, the formation of the aspiration in us exclusively for the higher informational layer of the universe occurs gradually. The desire to know where I am, where I come from, what I am for, who commands me, who controls me, and how I affect the world, gradually become a necessity, the fundamental need. And again and again we are being thrown into earthy desires: “Maybe it is not this, that you need, but wealth, or some new knowledge, or maybe another couple of women, or maybe something else…” and etcetera.
But in the end an absolutely clear and explicit understanding, sensation: “Without the knowledge of the meaning of life, of the meaning of existence of all of nature, I simply feel like I exist in it in vain,” forms in man.
A. Rapoport: Let’s assume that today we will suddenly end up at some conference in a different country, and we will live in neighboring hotel rooms, and there will be an offer of some kind of entertainment. Can we end up there together?
M. Laitman: Man consists of many layers. Maybe, I will listen to something humorous with pleasure, maybe to some good excerpts from the opera. We remain in our senses; we remain in our habits and sensations. All of this exists for us, while we are in the body. I am talking about that which prevails in us, without which nothing else has meaning.
A. Rapoport: I am trying to understand you. That is to say that all the previous mundane incentives stay, but simply something higher prevails, is this correct?
M. Laitman: You pull them up to the Source of Life. You begin to see where all this comes from, you begin to study the origin of our Universe, of our life, of us, the governance over us, that which we can add to this governance. You begin to see the entire universe. It gradually begins to reveal itself to you, and you feel yourself and all of your desires, you see the way you were created, the reason that you were created precisely within these limits, in these properties, the reason you grew up in this kind of family, and etcetera.
In other words, what is revealed before you is a general picture to its fullest. At the same time all of your past desires remain in their places. Simply, you begin to see them in mutual connection with this whole continuous and eternal world, and can be realizing them already in a different manner.
A. Rapoport: I like this a lot, I would really like for it to be this way, because I assumed that the presence of the sixth sense assumes a contradiction with the previous five senses.
M. Laitman: Under no circumstance. Under no circumstances does man have the right to break away from this world. On the contrary, Kabbalists say that you must get married, give birth to children, raise them, work, listen to the news, participate in elections and do absolutely everything. And my teacher taught us so.
You are obligated to be in this world, because this world has not been created in vain. It is created this way on purpose that it is precisely from inside of it that you can attain the Upper World and combine these two worlds. The one that says that this world is not worth anything simply does not understand that he is denying one of the parts of the universe that is under the common governance of nature.
A. Rapoport: And is there anything that a person that has attained Kabbalah does not accept? For example, I call it “delights of the world.”
M. Laitman: All of us are no more than small egoistic desires, and man acts this way or the other only out of his desires. For this reason there is nothing in man that could be characterized as bad, because he does not have a choice. He does not have a choice on how to act, he acts out of what he has, out of what was formed in him under the influence of parents, of some genes. And now, science proves that genes altogether determine everything in us.
There is nothing bad and there is nothing good if it is nature itself. There is neither bad nor good in nature. It is man who determines bad or good when an informational layer besides for our world appears in him. And it is then that he begins to define himself in relation to this informational layer, to position himself under this upper informational layer, to this upper way of life. And at the same time he does not deny anything. He accepts everything that there is in him and he only organizes it properly, identically in the common universe.
Basically, Kabbalah says that one should not blame anyone, judge anyone, and it is necessary to create this common opinion, under the influence of which man simply would not be able to behave antisocially. And such common opinion is our only instrument of influence over men. And in everything else, man should be given an absolutely free path of personal development, until he ripens to strive towards the Upper World.
A. Rapoport: You constantly use the word “must:” “we must,” “man must.” Psychologists propose to substitute the word “must” for “it would be nice if… but if not, then it is not bad either.” What do you think about this?
M. Laitman: I think that psychologists regrettably make mistakes, because “only if—then this would be” speaks about the implicit, unformed man’s desire, when he does not know at all what he desires. If man knows what he desires he says “I must,” “I want.”
A. Rapoport: When a person sees that his desire is not coming true, he sometimes becomes very upset. If the person assumes that the result of his expectations may be good, and he desires it, but he still supposes that there may not be an outcome like that, then in the case of a bad outcome of things his sensations will be more at ease.
M. Laitman: Kabbalah speaks of other things: we should never regret the past, because the present that is being born is our true subsequent state that drives us towards the Goal. And the way that it manifests itself at this moment in relation to us is defined by the correspondence between our properties and the properties of common nature, that is, the balance of one and the other. And for this reason one should not regret anything at all. I must only think of my future state being much closer to nature.
The fact is that still, vegetative and animal natures do not err. Only man becomes mistaken in his desires—physical, of wealth, of fame, of knowledge. We make mistakes in that which is given to us beyond animal desires; here we do not know how to behave. If we would put these desires of ours into balance with nature, then we would feel absolutely comfortable, and we would not be receiving any kicks from nature.
The problem is in knowing how we need to behave on that level, so that the stable law of nature would not have a negative affect on us. Kabbalah teaches this.
A. Rapoport: By listening to you I have picked up that Kabbalah and psychology disagree in many things.
M. Laitman: I don’t think so. We simply do not have enough communication. I can show you what my teacher, famous Kabbalist Baal HaSulam, writes about psychology. He writes in a very approving and serious manner about psychology and he says that it is specifically psychology that has destroyed philosophy, which is devoid of meaning, when man completely tears away from reality and imagines god knows what to himself.
He knew philosophy perfectly; he quotes Nietzsche, Hegel, and Schopenhauer. But it is precisely psychology that he values more than any other science, because it relies on a quite accurate experienced basis, and Kabbalah connects with it very well. There are no contradictions between them. If we are speaking about man’s behavior, about his inner world, then Kabbalah adds another level to it, but under no circumstances a contradictory one to the common, well, let’s say, materialistic psychology.
A. Rapoport: This is greatly pleasing, because it gives new perspectives.
Tell me please, Doctor Laitman, what you think about the following situation. It is acceptable to think that men are polygamists (this is probably the way it really is.) Through working with couples for many years and even more with women, it has come to my attention that a man can be in a love relationship with several women. And if this would become legal, or at least if it would cease being considered immoral, then it would probably be—from my point of view—beneficial to society, because today many women suffer from loneliness.
What does Kabbalah think about this?
M. Laitman: We know about men being polygamous from our ancient sources. All of our forefathers had several wives, and according to eastern tradition a man can have several wives, as many as he can support. It is quite another matter whether he benefits from it. But in reality this is our nature, and in reality this comes from the Spiritual World.
By studying the structure of the spiritual world we discover the way our spiritual prototypes were created. In the spiritual world our spiritual prototype is called Zeir Anpin(ZA) (Small Face,) and the spiritual prototype of a woman is called Malchut (Kingdom.) And they are created in such a way that there is ZA—one and only, but there are eternally many Malchut that exist. That is to say, that naturally spiritual roots define the polygamy of men.
Besides, since the man has a precise connection with the Upper World, and the woman’s connection with the Upper World is realized exclusively trough the man— ZA is connected directly to the upper Partzufim, to the upper spiritual layers, but Malchut—exclusively through ZA—this is why the man is more free. And all this comes from the spiritual roots.
What can be done during our time? Nothing. You and I will not correct the world because it is moving towards an even bigger un-correctness, a manifestation of what was given to it: the breaking that existed in it from the beginning. Families will fall apart, society will fall apart completely, and people will not feel any boundaries at all, children will not feel like they are close to their parents, drug addiction and everything else will become universal. This is what awaits us.
And this is only a minor part of the common crisis that must bring man towards the only decision that “I need to see a full picture of the world in order to act properly. I will not stick my hand into the fire knowing that I will burn myself. Accordingly, it is necessary for me to know the way everything works and then I will always be able to act properly by seeing the clear picture of the world.” And then man will come to Kabbalah. But until then…
A. Rapoport: This means that I will pay more attention to my sensations and I will say: “Well, at the end we can not change the world, I will be developing quietly, I will be attaining the structure of the worlds, acquiring the screen, the sixth sense…”
By the way, I liked it a lot that you have said that it is men that are in polygamous relationships and that women communicate with the surrounding world, with the Upper World through men. It will definitely bring a lot of joy to women in my upcoming programs.
It still seems to me that it will be better if we guide someone?
M. Laitman: Humanity has tried all of this over the course of history. And anything that we do on earth—everything is only harmful to us. In order to act correctly it is necessary for us to know the common program of nature, of its goal. And then, just like by knowing physics I can more or less use electricity correctly, in the same manner I will stop making mistakes all of the time only when I find out the common law of nature. And without this it is better to sit and not do anything at all. That, which we have already done in this world is only beginning to manifest itself anyway.
A. Rapoport: For example, let’s say that a person stops me on the street and says: “Oh, Doctor Rapoport, I have seen you there and there. Tell me…”—and I catch myself enjoying the fact that this person perceives me as an authority figure.
Do you enjoy this kind of attention?
M. Laitman: I hate it when people stop me with these questions; I try to avoid these people because I cannot respond to them anyway. If the desire for spirituality has awakened in a person, then he is for Kabbalah. I am waiting for those who are already seriously set on sensing of the Upper World.
A. Rapoport: But as a person, does it not please you that someone wants to befriend you, and that someone wants to be like you?
M. Laitman: No. I do not feel this. Being a psychologist, can you tell me why?
A. Rapoport: As a psychologist I can tell you—again, this will sound slightly tactless— that either it is not so and you know it, or that it is not so and you do not know it.
M. Laitman: So, is this a minor, hidden egoism or an apparent one?
A. Rapoport: I often speak with actors that say that fame does not matter to them, that they do not work for its sake but for the sake of reincarnation, art, creative work, and etcetera, and etcetera. But Michael Kazakov, who you know for sure, likes to quote Pushkin, who used to say “Fame—a lustrous patch on decrepit rags of a poet.”
And probably, still, somewhere deep inside of our—I don’t even know any more what you would call this—subconscious or something else—exists, well, lets not say “pleasant,” but we will call this sensation “comforting,” or “good.”
M. Laitman: Again we are entering the area that is called motivation. I do not have any motive to speak with someone; the motive to be popular does not stem from myself. If at the same time I am advancing my idea, only the idea, separated from me, then this makes sense. And if this idea will come through without any participation from my side (I may not be participating in its advancement) maybe this would be even better.
You understand that here the problem lies in a different matter. When man grabs on to a higher stage, to the Upper World, his priorities change; his earthy egoism combined with the desire for fame acquires an absolutely different form. There is a desire for fame, but such that is based on the desire to draw humanity upward. He feels that he is a representative of this upper informational layer. He no longer relates this to himself, because he himself becomes lost in nature. He, as an “I,” becomes dissolved.
A. Rapoport: After all, there are other people that study Kabbalah, who you call Kabbalists, do you communicate with them? And what is this level of communication, and what are these common interests, and what are these mutual values, and how can one prevent himself from taking himself into account, his own interests and not theirs, let’s say, in these mutual values?
M. Laitman: Let’s assume that two Kabbalists have risen to the informational level that we call the Upper World; let’s assume they begin to feel like they exist in one reserved system that is called Adam. Adam is the common soul. And there they feel like they are little parts of this system. Let’s say that there is “I,” and there is “you.” And we feel that we are absolutely equal, that we possess equal rights, that we are equally responsible participants of this system, like one organism.
This organism neither exists without one nor the other. In this organism one does not have advantage over the other, but has only a commitment to the proper mutual functioning and the desire for all others from our world to enter this organism on the informational and sensible level faster, and unite in proper interaction. Then, this so called Adam would come to accordance with nature that is around him, which can be called Creator or nature—it does not matter. And then this entire structure would feel eternity and perfection, and not what it feels when it is in small egoistic desires.
A. Rapoport: In other words, you are now saying that it would be great for the entire world to be inside of this same society of people with attainments one day.
M. Laitman: Yes, this is what will happen in several decades.
A. Rapoport: You think that in several decades a “Kabbalization” of all-humanity will take place?
M. Laitman: “Kabbalization”—yes. All people will ascend spiritually, and they will feel like one united organism, and they will feel all of nature as one united organism.
A. Rapoport: And such people as Osama Bin-Laden, let’s say—him as well?
M. Laitman: You, as a psychologist, do not understand that in our world man is absolutely not free. All the people, and especially those that such social pressure befalls, they absolutely do not have free will in their actions. They simply are puppets.
What does man have in our world? Man who was born in our world and brought up in a certain way, he now, let’s say, at the age of twenty is being taken out as bread from the oven. What can be asked of him?
A. Rapoport: And when universal attainment and universal involvement of man into the system of Adam will come, what will happen to these people there?
M. Laitman: They will be just like everyone else.
In this world all of us are dependent. Until man has a connection with the spiritual informational layer, he does not choose which way to act; he only functions under the influence of laws from the inside. In our word all of us are puppets.
A. Rapoport: As I understand, people will be gradually entering this community under a conditional title of Adam, some people over the period of some time will be beyond its boundaries.
From your point of view, will a moment come where those people, that will find themselves beyond the boundaries of the system, will feel like they have not realized themselves and they will feel the meaninglessness of remaining further beyond the boundaries and will end up inside according to some series of events—can this happen?
M. Laitman: It is this precisely to this that nature is leading us today through constantly expanding crises in all areas: in the family, in nations, in economy, in ecology. We begin to feel that we are mutually connected to everything. This is where we are going.
In the end, we will all become certain that we will simply destroy ourselves without acquiring perception of the Upper World, of the objectives, of the program of the Universe, the Goal of existence of the Universe; without the ability to correspond to all this.
A. Rapoport: Will the convergence of the two teeth of a fork happen through a catastrophe?
M. Laitman: In this we already have freedom of will. In this is the only freedom of will that we have: either we will be able to disseminate the knowledge of Kabbalah in such a way that humanity will see sooner, before the catastrophe, under the influence of the Upper Light—its defective state—or, we will not be able to do this, and then after a couple of atomic world wars the miserable remains of humanity will still carry out the program and rise to the level of Adam.
A. Rapoport: You said: “Either this will happen, or this will happen.” From your point of view—not like an optimist, not like a person that preaches Kabbalah—but simply from a point of view of Michael Laitman, of a man, nevertheless, how do you think it will actually happen?
M. Laitman: Every second I must imagine that these two solutions are equivalent.
A. Rapoport: It was a great pleasure speaking with you. I am very glad that I became acquainted with you, and I would really like to see more of you. For this reason, let’s stay in touch somehow, let’s not lose each other. Because I no longer collect costumes, cutlets, cars, but I collect relationships with people. For this reason, let’s continue to keep in touch. Once again, thank you and all the best.
M. Laitman: Good Bye, Alexander. Be well.